2003-04-22. Status Achievement of Agondonters
SE Idaho #54
Topic: Status Achievement of Agondonters
Group: SE Idaho TeaM
TR: Bill K.
Prayer by unknown being (Bill): Ask and you shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened. Seek and you shall find. Prepare our hearts, our Father, as You dwell within each of us to receive Your truth; to be passageways for Your love; to be instruments of Your service. We ask it in Michael’s name. Amen.
Talatia (Bill): Hello, dear friends, I am Talatia once again honored to be with you.
No, Ken, I haven’t been given permanent status on this staff, but it was decided, upon review of last week’s meeting, that you respond to my status as a Finaliter because you know that it is your destiny as well; and while you immensely treasure your morontia companions, your teachers who have delivered such excellent information to you, that because I was here during this period of study and consultation I should make myself available one more time.
So now I greet you with some familiarity, my dear ones, and it is my privilege to teach you in response to questions. So with no further ado, we will engage in a friendly conversation. I will bring no lesson at the start, but perhaps in response to your concerns we will share a lesson together. What would you like to discuss?
Ken: We had quite a discussion during our reading of last week’s lesson about us agondonters, about yourself and all other agondonters. We found lots of humor. We have questions. Perhaps we can answer them in the Urantia Book; perhaps we can’t. One of the questions that was brought up was, “At what point do we become agondonters?” Is that permissible to ask, my friend?
Talatia (Bill): Anything is permissible, but not everything will be answered. In a sense this is a curiosity question. It is a theoretical question. I can respond to it, and I will, but we desire that questions be asked which pertain to your actual everyday routine, and irregular lifestyle; but I will qualify the term somewhat. In the definition it is clearly stated that it refers to those people who have trusted in the goodness and over-care of God without material support, without sight. Now, you might say, what does that mean? Very clearly it rules out anyone who lives on a planet of normal status where the spiritual administration is physically evident and cannot be disputed. It is not a matter of faith whether there is an Adam and Eve, it is a matter of fact. It is not a matter of faith whether there is a magisterial son in the case of one who is incarnate; it is a fact.
However, persons living on normal planets still have to exercise faith in what they do not see; they have to believe the words of the teachings of their spiritual advisors regarding things that are still in the future. So you see, even those individuals have to live by faith, for short of the Paradise embrace of the Spirit, the Son and the Father, Their existence as the Trinity is to some degree a matter of faith. It also could be argued that each one has contact with the Trinity, even as mortal, with the experience of the Thought Adjuster within, the Spirit of the Son-the Spirit of Truth within, and the often times almost convincing ministrations of the Third Source and Center, through the angels of the Mother Spirit of the Local Universe. Now you see I am sort of shading in here between a black and white definition, as non-agondonters still exercise faith.
But agondonter status is still a reality. It is based upon your experience. As you have discussed this evening not everyone on a rebellion planet will become an agondonter for many have barely a flickering of faith. But because you have not had the full information a normal planet would have available to all your people, then these, who have not opportunity to make a final decision, will be given that opportunity on the morontia worlds.
Bob S: But they cannot become agondonters.
Talatia (Bill): No, not on the morontia worlds. Now I prefaced my remarks by saying this is somewhat of a curiosity question, and here is the reason for that comment. Concern with rank and status, (which is not, by the way, the way we think as agondonters), concern with rank and status on the part of mortals, on your part therefore, is antithetical to your spiritual journey. Remember how Jesus’ original Apostles would fall back into questioning, propositioning each other, wondering who was going to be on the left hand and right, who would be prime-minister, who would be in charge of finances in the coming kingdom? These are rank and status discussions. That is why I am somewhat reluctant to talk about it.
Your conversation relative to the decision to do the will of God forever, which Isaac termed a betrothal decision, is proper for spiritual progress. It is the goal of your Thought Adjuster to bring you all to that betrothal agreement, and once that decision has been made, then have you set your face toward Paradise. When that decision is confirmed in the actual wedding, fusion, that marriage never experiences divorce. You and your wonderful Mystery Monitor, your Thought Adjuster, your Thought Controller, (all the same entity) become the same unified eternal personality.
Again to be an agondonter is to have certain experience. It relates to faith, a faith that is based on another kind of sensing. It is not the sensing of the eyes, the ears, the touch of your hands, the taste of your mouth, or smell, but the sensing of the reality of your indwelling presence of God the Father, God the Son and the care and surrounding support of God the Spirit through the Mother Spirit and the ministry of Her angels. So what would you say to this, my friends? Do you wish to discuss this further? Have you understood my words here?
Ken: I understand your concern. I appreciate your taking my curiosity question, and giving me new light and understanding. I thank you for that.
Talatia (Bill): Thank you, Kenneth. Please take no offense or worry about the fact that I termed it a curiosity question for in fact you individually were only part of the group that discussed it, and it is not inappropriate nor irresponsible to ask that question. As I said earlier, all questions are appropriate, but some may not be answered, yes.
Bob S: Would you care to comment on the debate which Ken and I had concerning whether agondonter status is based upon a single level of attainment that everyone must meet, or is it one which is individualized where each individual is judged to be ready or not based upon the circumstances and situations that individuals have achieved, and perhaps their Thought Adjuster then makes the decision when He feels they have attained that level of spiritual development?
Talatia (Bill): It is actually a process which entails both of your points of view. It is not necessary for you to know the administrative details. It would be important if you were part of the process and it was part of your job description so that you do your job properly, but that is not the case. The key ingredient is the quality of faith, the degree to which you have been able to surmount the negative aspects of your environment and the negative aspects of your reaction to your environment. It’s the degree to which you were able to triumph over the spirit poisons, and I know you know what those are.
On the other hand, everyone’s circumstances are unique because even though you may be in identical environments, you have difference personalities which organize things each according to their unique patterns. Your interpretations of identical environmental aspects differ, so, even if you are in identical environments, (which never is true actually), you would still have variable reactions. At the same time you have an equality among you, as do all created personal beings of Father-fusion potential, and that is you have a portion of the First Source and Center as a Fragment within your mind. This is the equality that you have, so you have the same amount of help even though you are different individuals. You, therefore, have different experiences, but with equal opportunity.
Now, as to the judgment of who shall be an agondonter, I will not explicate that to you. I will say that such an important decision is almost as important as the decision whether to survive or not survive. The adjudication of non-survivors is always a lengthy process, with mercy pleading with justice, but, as you know, the non-survivor finally decides by his own decision. In contrast, the decision about whether one is an agondonter or not is very nearly the same process as the decision about where an individual is to be placed on the 7 mansion worlds. It is the same kind of thing that you do when you make placement decisions about individuals in terms of educational levels; whether to pass a grade or not; in job assignments whether or not a person has the skill to do this job. So it isn’t a simple decision by one individual. Yes, Thought Adjusters, of course, have major input and your guardian angels are included. These kinds of major important decisions go through a review process until there is no discord or disagreement about the decision. Do you understand what I am saying? Does that help you?
Bob S: Yes, it helps. I was sure that you wouldn’t be able to give us any details regarding the process, and I concluded that having the details would be counter-productive. It would probably hurt rather than help with the decisions we have to make.
Talatia (Bill): Experience is the important thing. If your experience includes overcoming spirit poisons, and triumphing over life in a situation such as living on this planet where there are no visible sources that can serve as alternatives to faith, the decision will be made based on the quality of your trust and service, and the degree to which the Fruits of the Spirit manifest in your life. Other comments about anything else that you want to discuss with me?
Virginia: Talatia, I was reminded of individuals with near-death experiences. (I just may have figured out how to answer my own question.) Certainly these people who have experienced something beyond and have come back, and believe that love and knowledge are the most important things, may not qualify as agondonters; but then I realized that their decisions are based upon previous religious personal experience. What are you comments on my question? Did I make myself perfectly clear or muddy?
Talatia (Bill): If I had made myself perfectly clear you would know the answer to your question, so I will briefly reply. My answer is that I wouldn’t know, because it is not given to me to decide that! As I told you a minute ago, it is a group decision. I hear your logic though. You are saying that in a near-death experience they did encounter with their eyes open, as it were, the spiritual administration. It is an interesting question, and I don’t recall that any of my company has had that experience; but as to the actual status of such an individual, again it would be a group decision. I threw in that gray area to get you to understand that it is not simply a black and white thing; that some people have seen visions; does that disqualify them from being considered agondonters, you may ask. (Comments.) And what I wanted to say at the beginning and I hope that I got through to a degree is, don’t worry about status questions! It’s the wrong kind of concern, you see. It really is. (Comment.) Whatever will be, will be, regarding your experience. It should not really be a goal to achieve agondonter status or a goal not to achieve agondonter status. (Comment.) The goal should be to progress; always to increase your faith. The agondonters are not in a status set-up.
The churches that believe in levels of heaven, as status achievement, miss the point. The levels of heaven are like the rungs of a ladder. They are achievement levels yes, but they are not status levels in the eyes of the mature universe. It is acceptable to take a degree of self-satisfaction in the achievement of spiritual progress as long as it is not ego satisfaction, for ego satisfaction is totally off the mark since those achievements were only accomplished in spite of the ego! Do you see? And so when anyone thinks to themselves, ” I shall go to the 3rd heaven and this ruffian next to me might make to the 1st, and this uncouth lad here may not even get to the 1st level, and this other person may make it to the 2nd”. This kind of thinking is foolish; it is judgmental; it is ego-centered; it misses the point entirely! And so it is with agondonter status, it is a matter of experience-tough experience. One of you desires to retire to a planet of Light and Life, and indeed you will have your wish granted, in a sense. Now, have I muddied the waters?
Virginia: No, you haven’t muddied the waters, Talatia. When you said this ruffian will go there, and this one will go there, I thought to myself, we don’t know the motives of that ruffian. I have thought I had good motives, and my actions are just outrageously bad and I fall on my face. But thank goodness the Book says that it is the motives that God looks at. This I think is what you are saying, that we cannot judge anybody’s motives, much less even our own!
Talatia (Bill): And even more than that; motives are the main thing, but there are other factors. You don’t know the circumstances in another person’s life. You don’t know about the genetic inheritance. You don’t know the interpretation that person’s mind has made regarding things, and certainly you don’t know the motives. You don’t know the degree they desire to better themselves, although I’ll say this flat-out, all people of normal mind, meaning those who have average intelligence or better, those who are not conscience deficient, those who are not mentally ill, all normal minded people, because they are indwelt by Thought Adjusters, have at the center the drive to achieve spiritual progress. Some become confused and befuddled by over-much learning, by sophistries, and by ego aggrandizement. This does delay them for then they seek not the resources of that Inner Spirit.
Bob S: Has there ever been a case when a person has been granted agondonter status, and then through powerful forces, or whatever, they’ve fallen away to the point where they no longer qualify. I am thinking of David and Bathsheba, as an example.
Talatia (Bill): Well, I don’t know of such a thing. I am not aware of such a thing! It’s another hypothetical question! What you are really asking is when someone attains agondonter status, can they lose it? Not once they are fused. We haven’t got a corps of agondonters here into which you are inducted through a formal ceremony. Most of you assume you are agondonters, and I won’t contradict that. (Comments.) I won’t contradict that not just to be gracious, but because I have no evidence to contradict it. When one reaches the morontia world life is very different than it was for David and Goliath, (Comment.) or David and Bathsheba, or any other mortal scene.
Bob S: But if you take away that essence of doubt, can you ever be 100% certain a human being has reached that level? And if he has, is he still a human being? Isn’t that part of our role as human beings–to deal with that lack of certainty. When the committee says you have experienced enough, you are qualified to be an agondonter, but are you still a human being? Isn’t it part of our job as human beings to deal with doubt. You seem to be saying that an agondonter has reached that level where they have doubt under control, but that, in itself, is a contradiction. The doubt has to remain there (to be fully human) doesn’t it, until you reach Paradise?
Talatia (Bill): No, friend, it doesn’t have to. Jesus attained perfect humanity in his human nature while still on this planet. In fact, he never doubted the over-care of his Father. If you obtain victory over doubt in this life you do not lose your human status. You just become perfected or nearly perfected. In fact, if you reach that level of confidence you will conjoin, just as Jesus did. You will experience fusion. In Jesus’ case he couldn’t fuse, so his Thought Adjuster became personalized. But that was the moment of perfection. Should you achieve that level you won’t lose your humanity, but you will lose your residential status. You will be translated. But you remain evolving humans in morontia estate. You never lose your humanity, your original experience of human life.
Bob S: And when do we get over those doubts? When did you lose your doubts?
Talatia (Bill): Perhaps I am giving you the wrong impression. Your human nature, your mortal mind, will raise questions. Jesus’ human nature raised questions after he had reached that state of perfection in the Garden of Gethsemane. You could say he had doubts about the wisdom of his being crucified. And so his mind raised questions in the Garden, and he expressed his feelings; you could say doubts-is there any way out of this situation? But, as you know, he said, ” nevertheless not what I wish, but your will be done”. And that is the faith-that God’s will is better than human will, and he trusts the Father knows best.
I guess you are not asking hypothetical questions, my friend. You are asking about your own soul’s progress.
Bob S: Well, probably. You see through me. Your interpretation is probably correct.
Talatia (Bill): My advice to you is not to worry about qualifications, not to ask hypothetical questions as Nalda did with Jesus. Do you remember that conversation? (The woman at the well?) Yes. After Jesus had said to her, “If you ask me I will give you living water!” she said, “Your people say we should worship God in Jerusalem and our people say we should worship Him here on the hill. Which one of us is right?” That was a hypothetical question to divert the subject away from her spiritual needs. And so Jesus redirected her question, and said it didn’t matter whether you worship in Jerusalem or on the holy hill. The Father desires that people worship in spirit and in truth, and they can worship anywhere as long as they do that.
So, I say to you to be more gracious with yourself. Don’t worry about external standards of progress, but open yourself up, even more than you have, to the intimacy of God Within. Share your life with God. This I say to you all. This is the essence of doing the will of God. It’s to be friends with God, not servants, not slaves, but friends.
Bob S: And that, in itself, requires a leap of faith, doesn’t it?
Talatia (Bill): It requires the trust of a child in a loving parent, and it wouldn’t have to be such a leap of faith if this was a different situation. [Ed. He is referring to the rebellion and default of Adam and Eve, or possibly questioner’s childhood.] So, I guess you’re right. The leap is part of that agondonter thing, because you haven’t seen. Remember, though, that you have a spiritual sense, that as you draw near to God, He becomes more real to the point where you can say, “I know that I am a son of God for I speak with Him. I share with him. I am intimate with him. I am close to Him,” just as you are with anyone that you love dearly, preferably as a child with your birth parents.
Another thing…thinking about the future, it can also be a distraction from living in the present, and, as you know-at least as you have been told several times, the present is where eternity resides. The present is where you make contact with God Within. The present is all you have, although it needs to be informed by the past and it needs to be informed by your projected future. But, nevertheless, don’t get distracted from living in the present by reminiscing about the past or speculating about the future.
I have just been advised that it is time for this session to conclude, and therefore, I will bring this to a close. I feel there might be another, lingering question, so I will pause and ask if somebody does have a final question?
LaReen: I do. Thank you for coming again! Will you come back?
Talatia (Bill): My job here, as I told you last week, is to observe your different cultures and to be a consultant to your planetary government. I am not at liberty to promise that, but I know that my stay on this planet has been projected to be for a reasonable time. Now let me ask you, why do you ask me that, my dear?
LaReen: I just enjoyed these last two classes immensely, and I enjoy your company; and I know we, Bob and Ken will anyway, come up with more questions. (Laughter.)
Talatia (Bill): Thank you for expressing your affection for me. I am gratified that my words and my presence have been enjoyable. Let me just tell you that having gone through the entire ascension career I could no more explain or describe what it is about to you than you could explain to a five year-old what it would mean to scale a mountain with hands, feet and ropes. No five year-old can comprehend the myriads of momentous experiences that one enjoys in mountain climbing. Yet one of you asked what it was like to meet the Father, (Comment.) I am trying to see if I have any words:… the most profound sense of coming home; the most absolute sense of knowing that you truly are the offspring of God; the recognition that this is your Father-without question, without shadow of defect or imperfection. No, there are no adequate words-the most profound joy; the most complete sense of satisfaction, far, far beyond the touch of doubt, yes!
Well, know that I love you truly. (Comment.) We are all brothers and sisters of this one, infinite, marvelous God. Oh, be of good cheer, my friends. Don’t let this life get you down-oh, no. I have no reason to doubt that you all shall be agondonters, but that’s not the purpose. That’s just the effect. That’s the result. That’s your privilege, because to be an agondonter is not to sit on a high and mighty throne, but to be a servant who washes the feet of his brothers and sisters. You will serve, all serve, in the universe, and all learn as well, in the ascension career but also in the Finaliter experience. This life eternal, my friends, it’s just that, and none of us comprehends eternity, for we are still finite beings. But the longer I live, the more I look forward to every next period of time.
Indeed, my period of time is over! Thank you. (Thank you.) You are very welcome. Now it is your custom to pray and hold hands, so let us do this once again. Unite your hearts with mine.
On the knees of our hearts we bow to you, lovely Father, Universal Parent. With our fullest intention we aim our lives toward the completion of Your perfect will. We thank You for the perfection of personality that we behold in the Eternal Son, and know that we are like Him, Your sons and daughters as well. And we thank You that with the Infinite Spirit we are graced with His work of merciful ministry, that we also can minister to our brothers and sisters. Oh my Father, may these, my brothers and sisters, receive such an infusion of Your love that their doubts will vanish sooner rather than later, and their joy will be complete, even as Michael of Nebadon achieved human perfection. Amen.